AngiePen ([info]angiepen) wrote,
@ 2007-11-29 12:46:00
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Entry tags:issues, publishing, writing

Plagiarism for $$
It looks like the fanfic plagiarists are taking it up to the next level. [info]elisa_rolle reviews romantic fiction in her journal and recently got some comments which indicate that one of the books she's reviewed was originally posted as Star Trek slashfic.

It's bad enough when some idiot plagiarist thinks she/he can steal someone else's story and post it in public without anyone noticing. You'd think that by now they would've figured out that even changing the names to make the story fit (sort of [eyeroll]) another fandom doesn't mean no one will notice the theft. But now at least one person has apparently decided that praise and hugs and e-cookies aren't enough -- they want actual money for their stolen goods. :/

Posted Comments:

"Just want to let you know that this story has been blatantly plagiarised. I read a very similar story years ago in a star trek slash fanfiction site. The link is below. The similarities just blew me away starting with the first scene
"


This looks like a reader who noticed the similarities between the stories, or it might've been a friend of the original writer who'd noticed the plagiarism, sent around to support her/his claims, as I've seen done in other cases.

"Yes. It was written by *me* several years ago and can be found on my website . I have contacted the publishers today to warn them to cease publication. They actually had the cheek to suggest that *I* had stolen the story. I am in contact with a lawyer and unless the publishers retract their statements and cease and desist from publication of my work under the name of this person, they won't have enough money to publish any more stolen stories after I have finished with them!>

Elisa didn't care for the tone (quite understandably -- I get that the writer is mad, and I'd have been furious, but none of this is Elisa's fault) so she deleted the comments. Next:

"I can comment as fast as you can delete....
This book was written by me. The story was stolen and I intend to sue the publisher. If you are in any way connected to this theft, I suggest you remove this review promoting stolen goods, otherwise I will include you in my lawsuit.>


[sigh] I think this last comment was seriously out of line, and obviously posted out of anger rather than thought. I've never heard anything to suggest that someone who reviews a plagiarized book is in any way liable, so it was bogus as well as rude. I can absolutely understand the anger of a writer whose work has been stolen, but throwing around baseless threats of legal action isn't the way to get sympathy.

Regardless of this individual author's judgement or lack of same, if this plagiarism-for-dollars idea spreads, it'll be even more important for us to keep an eye out and defend our literary property.

The first thing that occurs to me is that any piece of fanfic a writer posts (and cares about) should be saved somewhere in perpetuity. I know some fans delete their old stories, whether they just don't like them anymore or when they move on to another fandom or do a flounce or whatever. But in light of this, I think it'd be smart to save at least a journal or web site copy, so that the original date of "publication" is preserved. Journal entries can be set private rather than deleted, and web pages can be trapped, but keeping an original post intact somehow in case of later dispute would seem to be prudent.

The original post and its comments are here. Writers beware.

[ETA: The author has come to the later post in Elisa's journal (the one linked above) and has apologized for her accusations, so props to her for recognizing that she's been uncool to the wrong person in a moment of shock. /EDIT]

[ETA2: (2 Dec) More info has popped up since I wrote this post, and rather than make everyone read all the comments, I'll try to summarize.

This doesn't seem to be a case of plagiarism anymore. Amanda used that word but it looks now like she used it incorrectly. Massa did not copy Amanda's story word-for-word, at least not in the excerpt linked to a MySpace post here. (Thanks to [info]ontherunaround for that link.) Instead, what it looks like is Massa sat down with a copy of Amanda's story and changed just enough that it's not technically plagiarism, but it's still very clearly based on Amanda's story, at the paragraph and sometimes the sentence level, turning the story into some kind of MadLib. :/ Check it out.

Although not technically illegal (to the best of my understanding) this is still incredibly uncool. Although probably not actionable, I would hope that if Amanda could prove priority (there's a URL from the Wayback Machine in the comment thread in Elisa's journal, linked above, and Amanda's also said she has e-mail exchanges saved from when she was sending earlier versions of the story back and forth with her beta) then no legitimate publisher would want to offer it for sale under anyone else's name. It's one thing to grab a plot or a gimmick or whatever from another writer -- every writer does this all the time, whether they realize it or not -- but quite another thing to grab paragraph-by-paragraph and line-by-line.

This might not be the first time Massa's done this. She's apparently been accused of plagiarism from fanfic writers before, although none of them were willing to fight it out. Someone else in the MySpace comment thread mentioned that she might have made improper use of one of Christine Feehan's stories, but I'm skeptical until I see something concrete on that. First, if it's just an "idea" that was "stolen," there's not necessarily anything wrong with that; it depends how much was used and how much it was changed or twisted or whatever. You can't copyright an "idea" and there aren't many really original "ideas" in literature anyway. And second, Christine Feehan (for those not into the paranormal romance subgenre) is a hugely popular writer; anything obviously characteristic of her work would be immediately recognized and Massa would have to be supremely stupid to borrow too closely from her.

Linden Bay, Massa's publisher, has pulled the book in question from sale. (The person who posted on MySpace didn't go check, but I did.) This doesn't mean they necessarily believe she's guilty of wrongdoing, though; pulling it while the dispute is going on is just prudence on their part. It shows good faith, and they can always put it back later.

The fact that this isn't an actual plagiarism case just makes it messier and harder to deal with. It's pretty clearly improper use of another writer's work, even if the excerpts used for comparison turned out to be the only place the copy-and-fiddle process was done, which I doubt. Plagiarism would be easier to fight and more straightforward to argue. As it is, I don't know that Massa's actually done anything illegal, but it's definitely over-the-top derivative and incredibly lame and I suspect her publisher's very unhappy with her right now. /EDIT]

Angie



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[info]isiscolo
2007-11-29 10:00 pm UTC (link)
Wow, thanks for posting these links. I am really happy that the original author and the reviewer have both calmed down and recognized that each other is not the enemy. But I'm also as astounded as the author that someone plagiarized a fic for her novel (although of course we reserve the right to file our own serial numbers off!) and I wish her good luck with the lawsuit.

I don't know that saving fanfiction on the web proves anything. Journal entries can be backdated, for example. But I suppose anything that can support one's claim of original authorship is a good idea. Wow.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]angiepen
2007-11-29 10:19 pm UTC (link)
Welcome. It just struck me right away as something that needed to be talked about. :/

You're right about the backdating, but it was the first thing that occurred to me. And if there are comments on the journal entry, they can't be backdated, so that'd help. Other than that, though, short of the classic trick of mailing it to yourself to get the postmark, I don't know what else one could do.

(although of course we reserve the right to file our own serial numbers off!)

[nod] And when I first read this, that was the first thing that occurred to me with the original "I read something like this as fanfic" comment -- that the writer had filed off her own serial numbers and published under a pseud the reader didn't recognize. Clearly not, though.

Angie

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]siderea, 2007-12-01 03:37 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]angiepen, 2007-12-01 07:27 am UTC (Expand)

[info]brigantine1
2007-11-29 10:23 pm UTC (link)
Argh, so annoying! It's so upsetting when some sleaze does something that makes us even contemplate having to lock our journals, or keep some sort of proof on hand that our stories are in fact ours, just in case of sleaze attack. That kind of crap ruins everybody's fun.

Journal entries can be backdated, for example. But I suppose anything that can support one's claim of original authorship is a good idea. Wow.

I was thinking the same thing - though comments can't be back dated, can they? So if an author posts a story to a fan community and has received comments on it that pre-date the plagiarized version, that would serve, yes?

Edit: Oh, you just answered my question. Hee!

Edited at 2007-11-29 10:24 pm UTC

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]angiepen, 2007-11-29 10:27 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]shegollum
2007-11-29 11:37 pm UTC (link)
i've been thinking about these things myself. there are one or two things i've been reworking and considering doing something with and i feel like i should pull all my stories from everywhere!

it's not just the lack of ethics here that are maddening; it's also the sheer lack of common sense.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]angiepen
2007-11-30 12:04 am UTC (link)
I think it would be a terrible shame if more people locked down or deleted their stories en masse. It's up to you, of course, to do what you think is best to protect yourself, but really hope it doesn't become even more of a trend than it already is.

About the plagiarism specifically, if Amanda really does go all the way through with her lawsuit, with any luck the plagiarist will be taken to the cleaners and back again and that'll serve as an example to anyone else who might have similar ideas for making some quick cash on someone else's writing. [crossed fingers]

Angie

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]sarkka2
2007-11-30 10:41 pm UTC (link)
I'm not sure about the whole thing....I googled a bit and the book she claims someone (JJ massa ?) has stolen from her and published under the name THe Edge is still on sold at Amazon ? I find it very hard to think she has the nerve to publish that with her own ? face but if that's it.... MEH...

As I love my readings and my authors I can't even begin to think how I would feel if I would have bought something, enjoyed it and then later on found out that it was plagiarized from somewhere else.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]angiepen
2007-11-30 10:47 pm UTC (link)
My understanding is that the plagiarist (Massa, it sounds like, and I've just been assuming that's a pseudonym) published the book a couple of years ago and the original writer (Amanda) only recently discovered it. She says she's suing, so we'll have to see how that works out.

About the book still being available at Amazon, I remember another recent (although fundamentally different) case of plagiarism where the book was taken down promptly from the publisher's web site, but it took a while longer for Amazon to stop listing it. I'm willing to assume that's a matter of Amazon itself having some cumbersome process for removing books, rather than the publisher trying to pull a fast one. You'd think they'd have some sort of fast-track for cases like this, but apparently not.

Angie

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]ontherunaround
2007-11-30 11:10 pm UTC (link)
Here from [info]metafandom. Hi!

I've been following this for a bit, and I've read it with a slightly different slant: it's not those darn fandom plajurists at it again. The plagiarist (alleged, but I have no doubt of it being true anymore) is a many times published author, and this was hardly her first ever pubbed story. This is a pro author copying from a fanfic author. Though it stands to reason that she at least reads in fandom, of course.

But yeah, next level. The fanfic author discusses things here (warning: it's Myspace ;)).

[edited to repair HTML + missed word - grr, sorry]

Edited at 2007-11-30 11:12 pm UTC

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]angiepen
2007-11-30 11:25 pm UTC (link)
Oh, good grief. :/ Thanks for the additional info, and the link.

This just makes it even more boggling, that a previously published pro would plagiarize a fanfic. I mean, I'll grant that there are some absolutely fantastic fanfics out there, but the idea that a professional writer would gamble her reputation that way just has me shaking my head. Because of course now all her previous books are suspect -- where'd she get them from...? The fact that Amanda only recently discovered the theft of a work Massa allegedly stole several years ago makes it perfectly plausible that Massa's earlier books were also stolen, from fan writers who just haven't noticed yet.

Whether that's true or not, it's going to occur to pretty much everyone who hears about this incident. So best case, Massa has tainted her entire (possibly legitimate) published body of work for just a single quick-N-EZ publication. O_O

Good grief. :/

Angie

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]angiepen
2007-11-30 11:33 pm UTC (link)
Wow, I'm psychic:

According to her publisher, she claims 'several' fan fiction writers have stolen her work.

Umm, yeah. I wish Amanda good luck in tracking down these fan writers who've "stolen" Massa's work. I'm sure comparing stories will be interesting. [sigh]

Angie

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]ontherunaround, 2007-11-30 11:57 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]angiepen, 2007-12-01 12:09 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ontherunaround, 2007-12-01 12:27 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]angiepen, 2007-12-01 12:41 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ontherunaround, 2007-12-01 01:00 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]angiepen, 2007-12-01 07:30 am UTC (Expand)

[info]isiscolo
2007-11-30 11:49 pm UTC (link)
Thanks for the Myspace link. The comments are fascinating, particularly Amanda's.

And I have to agree with Angie that now everything JJ Massa has published is now suspect. Jeez.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]dracothelizard
2007-11-30 11:30 pm UTC (link)
From Metafandom as well.

It'd be one thing for a writer to go 'hmm, this fanfic could work as a proper romance book if I changed some names' and plagiarise themselves, but this is just plain wrong and I hope it gets sorted.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]angiepen
2007-11-30 11:36 pm UTC (link)
It'd be one thing for a writer to go 'hmm, this fanfic could work as a proper romance book if I changed some names'

Exactly. And plagiarism isn't an issue at all in that case. I've done it myself twice and will probably do it a few more times, along with the original stories I've written and am working on for publication. But I own all the rights to my own work and can use and reuse it however I like. This is a completely different case. [nod]

Angie

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(via metafandom)
[info]kutsuwamushi
2007-11-30 11:36 pm UTC (link)
I have a suggestion for people who want to save copies of their stories on LJ just in case they have to "prove" later that they wrote it first:

Leave a comment on the post containing your story. The reason is that the posting date of an entry can be fiddled with by using backdating. (You may be able to get proof of the actual posting date from LJ, but I'm not sure and I wouldn't rely on them anyway.) Comments, on the other hand, are automatically stamped with the time according to LJ's servers.

If anyone makes a comment on an entry, it shows that the entry actually existed at that time. That way no one can accuse you of messing with the dates.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: (via metafandom)
[info]angiepen
2007-11-30 11:39 pm UTC (link)
We mentioned that upstream a ways. [nodnod] It's a good idea, for anyone who posted on LJ, and on archives which allow comments and show comment dates. That should actually cover most fan writers, or a heck of a lot of them, I would think.

And actually, I'd assume that any piece of publicly posted fanfic which was worth considering for publication would've gotten at least a few comments from other readers, so the writer shouldn't have to do this. [wry smile] But yes, comments are an un-fiddlable datestamp.

Angie

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

Re: (via metafandom) - [info]kutsuwamushi, 2007-11-30 11:48 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: (via metafandom) - [info]angiepen, 2007-11-30 11:51 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: (via metafandom) - [info]doire, 2007-12-01 12:14 am UTC (Expand)
Re: (via metafandom) - [info]angiepen, 2007-12-01 12:18 am UTC (Expand)

[info]theclamsman
2007-12-01 12:31 am UTC (link)

But in light of this, I think it'd be smart to save at least a journal or web site copy, so that the original date of "publication" is preserved. Journal entries can be set private rather than deleted, and web pages can be trapped, but keeping an original post intact somehow in case of later dispute would seem to be prudent.

That is what I do for some artwork, too. (Here just following links...) Some of my fellows in the spec art biz delete their stuff but I don't, just for the same reasons you state for fic. It's a good idea to keep your original stuff published somewhere for those reasons.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]angiepen
2007-12-01 12:42 am UTC (link)
Yes, that would apply to art too, wouldn't it? [nod]

Angie

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]azdak
2007-12-01 12:55 pm UTC (link)
How do we know who's telling the truth here? Has the published novel only come out really recently, or something?

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]angiepen
2007-12-01 01:30 pm UTC (link)
We don't know absolutely for sure, but if it's a hoax on Amanda's part, it's a pretty elaborate one.

My understanding is that the novel was originally published a couple of years ago with a publisher who went under (which isn't terribly uncommon for a small e-pub of erotic romance -- at least four more have closed down just this year that I know of) and was re-contracted with Linden Bay Romance. So it's been out for a while, but Amanda (who claims it's her story) only recently noticed. Which also makes sense to me, since I haven't been aware of all that much overlap between fanfic fandom and the online erotic romance publishing industry until pretty recently, and even now it's not much. I can believe she wouldn't have noticed right away.

Amanda says her story went up online about a year before JJ Massa's version was published, and that she has proof in saved e-mails of earlier versions she sent back and forth to her beta.

Check out the link to MySpace in [info]ontherunaround's comment -- there's a comparison between a chunk of Massa's book (the first screen or so of the promotional excerpt on the Linden Bay site linked from the MySpace post) and the corresponding chunk of Amanda's fic. It's not exact, which so far as I know means it's not technically plagiarism, as in being prosecutable, but it's full of direct parallels. Like, really full. :/ As though someone sat there with Amanda's story (or at least that scene) and rewrote it paragraph by paragraph, so that it's different enough not to be actionable but still the same enough that anyone who'd read Amanda's version would go, "Hey, wait...."

I wrote the original post before seeing the MySpace post, when Amanda was saying "plagiarism" and seemed determined to take action to back it up. At that time, I thought she meant plagiarism, as in someone copying her story, changing the names, and sending it in to a publisher, with maybe the sorts of changes a professional editor would do. At this point, from what I've seen, I don't think it's plagiarism in a legal sense (IAW my understanding of what that is) but it does look like a clear case of ripping off someone else's story. Which isn't quite the same thing, but is still very uncool and if it's true, it's something her publisher likely wouldn't want on their site.

Linden Bay has taken Massa's book down (the MySpace person didn't check but I did -- neither of the two books listed under Massa's name on Linden Bay have a main character with the same first name as the one in the excerpt, nor do either of her books have an id number the same as that of the excerpt) but at this point that's just prudence on the publisher's part and doesn't necessarily mean they believe she's guilty of wrongdoing.

It is possible that Amanda's staging a hoax of some sort, for whatever reason, although I can't think why she would. Since she never tried to sell the story, and has stated in public that she'd never intended to, she hasn't lost any money, either real or potential. To the best of my knowledge, that means a court wouldn't be likely to award her any money even if they agreed that Massa had plagiarized it. (I'd be very interested to hear what an actual lawyer would say, though, since I'm just going by what I've picked up in similar discussions online.) If it's a hoax, though, then she's gone to quite a lot of trouble for something that won't gain her any concrete benefit.

Angie

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]azdak, 2007-12-02 07:27 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]angiepen, 2007-12-02 07:30 am UTC (Expand)
Unbalanced... LOL - (Anonymous), 2007-12-06 07:37 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Unbalanced... LOL - [info]azdak, 2007-12-06 09:37 am UTC (Expand)

[info]carmarthen
2007-12-01 07:00 pm UTC (link)
I'm sympathetic, but honestly, I doubt the original author has much of a case, unless the story's in the Wayback Machine (and even then...it's fanfiction. There are shaky issues. And if it's not a direct copy, but only derivative...well, a lot of fanfiction is pretty derivative, and derivation of derivation...I'm not sure proving originality is practical). I could see this costing the author a lot of money and not benefiting her at all.

Journal entries can be backdated; I doubt they'd hold up in court. And while I do tend to believe fanfiction is legal, I think fanfiction writers filing with the copyright office could lead to badness, so I'd be hesitant. Probably the safest thing to do in terms of proving authorship is to mail a sealed hardcopy to yourself and leave it unopened unless legal issues arise.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]angiepen
2007-12-02 12:08 am UTC (link)
This is derivative in a different way, though. At this point I don't think it qualifies as plagiarism, but Massa's version is not derivative of Amanda's the same way even a Harry/Ginny fanfic would be derivative of Rowling. Rather, there's a direct para-by-para and at times line-by-line correspondence. In places it looks like Massa took a sentence and just changed a couple of key words. I don't think the fanfic aspect has anything to do with it here; we're talking about one writer's words-in-a-row leaning too heavily on another writer's words-in-a-row.

And right, it's been mentioned already that the comments would be more valuable than the journal entry itself. [nod] So far as I know, you can't mess with the datestamp on a comment. Although I mentioned the mail-a-copy method too; sometimes old school works best.

It doesn't look like Amanda wants any money out of this. (Which is good because no financial harm has been done her and I doubt she could get any.) She's looking for an acknowledgement of priority with the story, though, and for Massa to stop claiming it (and selling it) as hers. She might not need a legal decision for that. If she can prove to Linden Bay's satisfaction that she wrote the original story first, and just how much Massa's version is directly derivative of hers (assuming the rest of the story matches as much as the excerpts posted to MySpace) then I'd expect the publisher to voluntarily back away. It might not be precisely illegal, what Massa did, but it's definitely uncool and I doubt Linden Bay would want its name associated with that sort of thing.

Angie

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

A reply from Amanda... - (Anonymous), 2007-12-06 09:39 am UTC (Expand)
Re: A reply from Amanda... - [info]angiepen, 2007-12-06 09:52 am UTC (Expand)

[info]ontherunaround
2007-12-02 12:26 am UTC (link)
The story is in the Wayback Machine, though, and date-stamped there some time before publication of the novel. There's a link to it in [info]elise_rolle's LJ post.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]azdak, 2007-12-02 07:29 am UTC (Expand)

[info]xtricks
2007-12-02 06:50 pm UTC (link)
Uh - you do realize that fanfic authors do not, actually, own their work? That we put up those 'not my universe/characters/story, not making profit, it all belongs to Paramount, WB, whoever' for a reason?

Fanfic is in a very gray area, legally, and this is why: according to one of the more common interpretations of copyright law (and the sensibilities of many publishes authors), we are 'stealing' other people's creative work (the star trek universe, House, etc). Since we don't 'own' that creative work, we don't have the right to prevent others from using it - including our own plots (it's almost impossible to copyright plots, anyway). What keeps the copyright holders off our back, for the most part, is the fact *we* don't try and make a profit and we don't claim ownership of the story/characters/world.

Yes, the author is a plagiarist, it sounds like, yes it's not fair. No, the original author doesn't have the right to sue. The attempt to do so is a claim that the author has some ownership of the content of the story and since the story has copywritten characters in it, the owner of the copyright (Paramount) is likely to have an opinion on the matter - and not one we're going to like.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]angiepen
2007-12-02 11:48 pm UTC (link)
Where to start? :)

First, yes, I know you can't copyright plots. I said as much upstream in a couple of places.

Second, saying "fanfic authors do not, actually, own their work" is problematic in that it doesn't specify what about their work they don't own. A fanfic author writing about a character like Tom Paris does not in fact own Tom Paris, nor does she own the USS Enterprise or the United federation of Planets or any other trademarkable name of a character or thing which might be owned by Universal or Paramount or whoever it is who owns Star Trek these days. Fanfiction isn't about plagiarism, though, and never was. It's about the illegal use of trademarked or copyrighted characters, ships, schools, specific gimmicks, etc., and that's a whole different thing, legally.

Plagiarism is about copying words-in-a-row without attribution, and a fanfic writer does own the rights to her own words. If a fanfic writer writes a distinctive paragraph or line, or even a clause or phrase if it's unique enough (which is for the court to decide) then it's hers (or his) and the fact that the protagonist of the story belongs to someone else is irrelevant. At most, it would mean that no lines containing Paramount's trademarked or copyrighted properties could be used as evidence of the theft, but every fanfic I've ever seen has plenty of lines which don't contain any names or phrases or whatever which are the property of the canon owner, and so much the more in the case of an AU story, which this is.

Third, this apparently isn't a plagiarism issue anymore anyway. I should probably have done an edit to make this clear for people who aren't reading the comments, so thank you for that. At the time I wrote the original post, though, I thought it was a plagiarism case because that's the word Amanda used. But as you've correctly pointed out, many people in fanfic fandom don't actually know what plagiarism means and its seems (from the two excerpts posted of her story and Massa's story) that this is not actually a case of plagiarism. Rather, it's a case of one writer of making extremely derivative use of another writer's story in a way which is very uncool. I'm fairly sure it's technically legal, so far as I understand the matter, but assuming everything I've seen is legitimate, it's definitely uncool in a way that Linden Bay, Massa's publisher, might well not want to be associated with.

Fourth, so no, it actually sounds like the published author (Massa) is not a plagiarist, contrary to what I thought before I saw some of the other links. She did, however, make unfair use of another author's work, apparently (just looking at the two excerpts linked above in comments) copying Amanda's story paragraph by paragraph and sometimes sentence by sentence and changing just enough key words that it's not, technically, plagiarism. But it's still not something any legitimate author would do, nor something any legitimate publisher would want to offer for sale. Amanda doesn't necessarily have to prove it's illegal to get the book permanently pulled from sale, and that seems to be all she wants.

Fifth, since Tom Paris doesn't appear by name in Massa's version, and the original story was an AU anyway and not set in the Federation (so far as I can tell from the excerpt) I doubt Paramount would have any opinion at all on the subject.

Angie

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

Plagiarism - (Anonymous), 2007-12-06 07:53 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Plagiarism - [info]angiepen, 2007-12-06 09:30 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Plagiarism - (Anonymous), 2007-12-06 09:48 am UTC (Expand)

[info]frogspace
2007-12-06 09:25 am UTC (link)
This doesn't seem to be a case of plagiarism anymore. Amanda used that word but it looks now like she used it incorrectly. Massa did not copy Amanda's story word-for-word

I'm just wondering, what definition of plagiarism do you use? It looks like you are saying that only copying something word-for-word could be plagiarism. That would exclude paraphrasing without crediting and taking the literary concepts (a plot, characters, words) of someone else and publishing it as one's own. I can't say for sure, but I think universities would disagree with that.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]angiepen
2007-12-06 09:45 am UTC (link)
It sounds like you're combining two different things, though. With academic writing, yes, concepts and ideas are very important and establishing priority and scholarly debt is a major issue. If I'm writing a paper for a class or an article for a journal, I need to footnote and credit ideas I borrow from other scholars, whether or not I quote them directly.

Fiction is different, though. Neither Chelsea Quinn Yarbro nor Poppy Z. Brite nor Laurel K. Hamilton had to "credit" Stoker or Polidori for the "idea" of a literary vampire. Neither Naomi Novik nor Christopher Paolini had to negotiate copyright with Anne McCaffrey over the idea of people riding dragons, assuming someone else didn't do it before McCaffrey.

Ideas are a dime a dozen in fiction. What's important there is what you do with an idea, not the idea itself. "Plagiarism" in fiction means word-by-word copying, not using the same idea as someone else. Using someone else's specific world or characters -- like Pern or Anita Blake -- is a violation, but anyone can write about people riding dragons or people killing rogue vampires and no one can say a word about it.

But you're right, it's very different in academia. [nod]

Angie

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

Amanda's reply: - (Anonymous), 2007-12-06 12:35 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Amanda's reply: - [info]angiepen, 2007-12-06 12:53 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Amanda's reply: - (Anonymous), 2007-12-06 01:51 pm UTC (Expand)
and now she's won an award
(Anonymous)
2008-03-23 03:41 pm UTC (link)
Did anyone see she won an award for her story at All Romance Ebooks for 2007? Wonder if that one's actually original.

Gina Stamper

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: and now she's won an award
[info]angiepen
2008-03-24 01:40 am UTC (link)
No, I hadn't noticed. :/ And yeah, one has to wonder about all her other books too, even if Amanda's was the only one she copied.

Angie

(Reply to this) (Parent)


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